Friday, 25 July 2008

FOARP V. Italy

That's right, the FOARP has now officially declared war on the nation of Italy. For years they have been oppressing me with their beautiful Lollobrigida, their delicious pizza and their boring 0-0 draws, now Antonio Napoli has pushed me too far!

Well, not actually, but for the record:

1) I can't think of any war that Italy has won since Roman times without outside help, if you know better, tell me.

2) Yes, the Italian team does play incredibly overly defensive football in my view, that makes for boring football.

3) The influence that the Mafia has over Italian politics may be exaggerated, but is not imaginary.


Antonio Napoli said...


if you want to do a it...we will defeat you, and send you back...
But before you start any war...why don't you first answer to what I wrote on your blog?

I report it here once you have time to answer, afterwards we discuss about the war topic:-)

I think you should answer me, insted of closing yourself behind infantile prejudices, don't you think so? To argue is a nice least this is what I think...


P.S. I
By the way pizza is a very good and healthy food, you do not get any cancer eating pizza, while you get very strong cancers by eating every day in McDonald's, Burger King, SubWay etc. etc..

Observe that I never defended the modern Italy...


I found this comment of yours in another blog.
I have to say that I feel outraged to see that still exists people like you with such puerile prejudices.
I don't know where you are from, but nevertheless I have to tell you that are there only few countries on this earth with a strong and important past as Italy had, and is not only about the Roman empire.
The whole peninsula had a great and glorious history.
The last decades cannot obscure it, and you are not allow to offend a nation, it does not matter which is. Moreover you statements are so poor...

You talk about it something so important? By the way Italy won four times
the world cup without cheating any one (actually Italy has suffered it)...Did your country did the same? And what about technology? Did your country ever express something at the same level of Ferrari? Let me it know, because I am curious.
You talk about it the most important thing of a nation?
I thought that scientists, musicians, artists, mathematicians, etc. etc were much more important...
By the way the history of Italy is full of brave and amazing generals...I don't know if you have ever heard of Eugenio di in Internet and try to understand why he deserved to get the Belvedere in Vienna as a may be that you learn something new...
But how can you talk like that? The western society has been shaped and it is based on the Roman Empire??? I remind you that Rome is in Italy.
OK, let's forget the Romans, and what about Macchiavelli, and Giotto, and Michelangelo and Giordano Bruno, and Marconi, and Fermi? I hope you have already heard about them. And what about your language (only in case you are English)? English contains 60-65% of Latin words (according to Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries)...have you ever noticed it?

Than you reached the top of the offences with the last point about mafia...
I really hope you are not English or an US guy...because Italian mafia cannot organize wars and kill hundreds of thousands of persons around the world as the English or the US governments did in the last 3-4 centuries...
If you take any book (take Britannica encyclopedia for example) and look for the word Mafia, you will notice that Mafia is characterized by some common aspects.
Thus try to think how the western governments behave (the US and the English in particular)...and you will end up that they have a lot of things in common with mafia...
I give you an example: in the mafia organization if someone decides to become a repentant criminal, what does it happen to him? He is immediately killed.
Well, there were about 65 witnesses for trial concerning the assasination of John Kennedy set by Judge Jim Garrison...45 have been killed before they could you notice any similarity? I hope you know that JFK was killed by a plot and one of the reason was to go further with the Vietnam war since the US weapon corporation wanted/need can easily search who is financing whom during the US elections...and you will see that such corporations did not almost finance JFK and they definitely did not finance his brother Robert (who was also brutally assassinated)...

I hope that this explanation give you the opportunity to open your eyes...and clean your mind by infantile prejudices..

your sincerely

Antonio Napoli said...


I know your tactic:-)
do you want that we fall asleep waiting for you;-))???


Will Lewis said...


On point 1, I just can't help commenting because I was thinking about this the other day. Italy has only existed since the late 19th century. The city-states that existed on the Italian peninsula lost power and influence with the 30 Years War because that war resulted in the creation of professional state led military and stronger centralized governments. Until the end of the 30 Years War there were some successful Italian soldiers. But, they were all mercenaries in the employ of whomever could afford them. Examples: Federico da Montefeltro, Raimondo Montecuccoli, Braccio da Montone. Sure, there skill was more in maneuvering in order to avoid war, but they were the masters of medieval warfare despite their nasty reputation.

As for the rest of your points. I agree, but I was a defender and I think Cannavaro's play is only less exciting to watch than Cristiano Ronaldo's, but with less whining.

FOARP said...

@Will Lewis - Nice to have some sane commentary. Point taken about the Italian mercenaries (Condottieri?), I suppose it is also worth mentioning Giuseppe Garibaldi and his various revolutionary/military exploits.

Couldn't agree more about Cannavaro and Ronaldo by the way.

Antonio Napoli said...


I see that nobody can/want answer to the my points...
I can imagine why, and because of that I lost of my hope to get an answer from you.
I believe that you can only lose the war...because if you are not brave enough to answer my simple questions, I am wondering how can you win a war...
Moreover, to read a guy writing from San Diego and complaining about Italy as a state that exists since few decades is depressing...
What is USA? Until the beginning of the last century you were still killing the poor Indians...your country belongs to the DO NOT have a DO NOT have a common with Spanish language, you WILL NOT HAVE a common DO NOT have a typical food...your name say have names like Cambridge, new England, new that time copy and paste didn't exist, but today we would call your name in such a way...that is the reality...but you just do not want to see...

bye bye,

Will Lewis said...

Whoa Antonio!

Chill out bro, you're creating a controversy and argument between us where there is in fact none. I never complained about or denigrated Italy as a state for the reason that it only has existed as a state since the 19th century (that's the 1800s). As far as I can tell there was no such thing as an Italian state until the Kingdom of Italy was formed in 1861. There's nothing inherently bad or good about that, it is simply fact.

Do I really need to respond to the second half of your hate filled writing? No. Instead, I'll note that I appreciate the contributions to the world's culture, sciences and arts made by such luminaries as "Macchiavelli, and Giotto, and Michelangelo and Giordano Bruno, and Marconi, and [especially, ;)] Fermi." You would probably be wise to demonstrate reciprocity in acknowledging positive American contributions.

Given the mass migrations of people that occurred between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and today, I'd be very careful about drawing connections between the Ancient Romans and modern Italians.

If your last name is Napoli, surely you are aware of problems in Campania due to Camorra influence. If you're Italian, surely you know of the frequency with which the 'Ndrangheta openly kill politicians and judges.

I'm pretty sure Italians speak about as much Latin as Americans do: zero. I'm pretty sure one language WAS the lingua franca, of a small corner of the globe, and I'm pretty sure one is becoming the lingua franca of the globe.

Your JFK comments are silly considering that JFK was a headstrong president who was determined to fight communism at all costs. He needed Khruschev as much as Khruschev needed him. JFK escalated Vietnam in the first place.

The assassination stuff is the work of conspiracy theorists, and a web search, unless it's an uncontroversial wikipedia page, is inadequate and does not qualify as research.

PS Pizza will make you fat and clog your arteries, but boy do I love it!

PPS Why am I joining in this discussion?

Antonio Napoli said...


why are you saying something not true? you denigrated Italy! In fact you said "I agree with
points 2,3", (written by FOARP).

Obviously, I know that Italy was found 1861 as a kingdom...but it was already a long time that nationalist movements were trying to put the country together, but due to strong foreign influence it didn't worked out.

In USA many persons strongly contributed to the world and in all the possible fields: scientific, social, politic, economy and so on and so forth.
I personally have nothing against USA people, but I have everything against the US government since the death of the two Kennedy.

By the way, do you know the difference between Italians and Romans, and US and Indians?
we suffered the invasions, you invaded...the Roman empire never reached the point to totally exterminate a population as it happened in the whole American continent, firstly because of the Spanish + Portuguese, and secondly, because of the English.

About John Kennedy. This are my main source of information:
"An Unfinished Life: John F. Kennedy, 1917-1963", Robert Dellek.
Prof. Dellek is one of the most famous expert about your President.
And "A Thousand Days: John F. Kennedy in the White House", by Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr.
I read many others, but these two are like the bible:-). Please, give a look to them.

By the way, the war in Vietnam started, at least from a monetary point of view, for the USA around 1952-1953. During this period your government was financing with ~85-90% (of the total) the French operation in Vietnam (see also the Pentagon Papers story).
Once the French started to suffer too many injured, they had to give up, also because of the internal public opinion, which was strongly against. This was around 1959. As you know 2 years later JFK started his term.

Three days before he died, he signed a document concerning the withdraw of 5000 US soldiers by end of Christmas 1963 (this is a documented fact).
Some days after his death President Lyndon Johnson signed a document to send other 50000 soldiers in Vietnam (another documented fact).
Now the Vietnam really escalated...but not because of Kennedy.
His brother Robert hated Johnson, and I guess you know, he wanted to stop the war in Vietnam.

To conclude:
I don't base any of my idea on conspiracy theory, but only on unequivocal facts. What I cited are facts, documented facts.
Moreover, I have a Ph.D. and I do researches writing papers, and I never accepted in my life to believe into conspiracy...all my researches are double checked by simulation + experiments. Can you imagine me to take everything as an unequivocal truth:-) ???

I don't know who killed Kennedy exactly. I mean I don't know the name of who decided to kill him. I know that the investigations done do not look, at the least to me, too serious.
Moreover, you should ask your government why the sensible documents about JFK assassination
have not been declassified yet. is this time of 25 years, right? so 25 + 1963 = 1988, it seems we have 20 years delay, there must be reason, don't you think so?
someone said that the reason is that the US citizen are not ready....not ready for what?
someone killed this man, someone killed your President and you are not ready? If I were you, I would take some actions...

I hope that my comments are somehow useful!
yours sincerely

Antonio Napoli said...


I forgot something...
if you give a look at my blog, you will notice that I am translating robert kennedy speeches...even extremely long one...If I do this, can you really thing that I am anti-US?

I am not. Not at all!!
You had great men over there...not only JFK and RFK, but also Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln...but now, look who are your representative??? are they better or equal to the corrupted Italian one?? I don't think so...they are both s.. o. a b...h, they belong to the same group...

that is the truth...they are people who are sick...they want every day more money and they are never satisfied...would you like to explain me what can my prime minister Berlusconi or your vice president Cheney do with tens of millions of € or $??? they are 70 yo already...they are going to die soon...and they continue, every day they want one million more, and than two a smoker or a drugged...

best regards,

Will Lewis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Will Lewis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Will Lewis said...


This conversation is getting very difficult, as we're not understanding what is being by written by the other party. I said I agree with number 2 in the same breath that I all but said Cannavaro is my favorite soccer player and I prefer the defensive style of play. Get it? It's a joke... Also, as to number 3, the influence is exaggerated, but Italian organized groups certainly have a [limited] influence in Italian politics, Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, and Mafia as prime examples. And you even write that several Italian politicians are under their corrupt influence. So what's your problem?

JFK escalated American troop presence in Vietnam from 700 to ~16,000, which is an over 20 fold increase. If LBJ increased to 50k, then that's a 3 fold increase over what was already there, or about a 5 fold increase over what JFK wanted to reduce to.

Spare me the BS, the US government has done plenty of good since the Kennedy brothers. It is probably easiest if we take a single good action of a morally bankrupt president: Nixon's opening of China. Surely, the overtures Nixon made to China and his decision to drop sanctions against China, allowing China to reopen itself to the world are something worthy of praise.

All I meant with my Roman/Italians comment is that the only connection modern Italians have with Ancient Romans is that they're living on top of a bunch of ruins. All of Europe and the Mediterranean is as much influenced by the Roman Empire as Italy.

Thank you for removing your tinfoil hat on the assassination issue. There are huge problems about it, and I look forward to learning about it.

A PhD does not mean that one is not a wack-job. Witness the PhDs who signed a document disavowing evolution. Witness the PhDs who still accuse Duke Lacrosse players of I don't even know what. Witness the PhDs who think that HAARP is a diabolic weapon.

I appreciate your support for Barack Obama. I also hope that you didn't think Clinton, HW, Reagan, Ike, or FDR were too bad of characters either. Bush, on the other hand, is definitely the worst president the US has had (even worse than William Henry Harrison).

FOARP said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FOARP said...

@Will Lewis - Have to agree with you about Nixon - the guy made mistakes: allowing recording of his Oval Office conversations was particularly (expletive-deleted) dumb, and he suffered an extreme lack of gravitas, but he wasn't stupid, and Kissinger was a definite asset. Let's see:

1) Ended the war in Vietnam.

2) Stated the dialogue with the USSR via back channels that led to the Helsinki agreements under Ford, which led to monitoring and support of the dissident movement led by Sakharov, which led to the end of the USSR.

3) Relations with the PRC.

4) Basically formed the modern era of the Republican party (the southern strategy etc.)

Bush isn't in his league (Serie C?)

FOARP said...

@Antonio Napoli - Okay, look, if you look back at my original comment, you'll see that I was talking about stereotypes, and such stereotypes do exist in the UK (watch "The Italian Job" for a 60's take on them). I did not say that they were views I shared except in the three areas I outlined, which I do not think incredibly unreasonable. For the record, both of my parents were classical scholars, as a young boy I remember translating the story of Horatio on the bridge, and reading a whole book of Virgil's Aeneid. Nowadays I can barely read "Cave Canem", but the respect for the ancient culture of Rome has stayed with me. It is true that the 19th century classicists denigrated the culture of modern Italy, but this ended at the beginning of the 20th century (see people like the - otherwise fairly racist - Enoch Powell for an example). It is also true that people in France, Germany, the UK, and the USA were often prejudiced against Italian immigrants, but this is the prejudice that most foreigners experience to some degree at least in a new country. Nowadays it is non-existent.

Antonio Napoli said...

Hi All,

I will reply you this evening. On many points I agree with you. On many other not at all. But this is normal, we live in two different contexts...and a perfect match would an utopia!
Try also to understand that when I wrote my first comments, I was very angry, because of this stupid prejudices or cliques...

About Nixon, I have to admit that I don't know him as well as I know the history of JFK. By the way I don't trust his friend H. Kissinger at all...

What you wrote about the increasing number of soldiers from JFK side is correct. It is a fact. On the other hand, you should have understood from what I wrote that JFK got the hot potato once he started his term. In few words, at the very beginning, he had to do it! The military power together with the CIA and the big weapon lobby wanted that...Once he started to think to get rid of these powerful group in Washington, he basically signed he death penalty.

I strongly recommend you to read the two books I mentioned.

This evening I will explain you better the situation in Italy, which is basically dramatic, I will also try to explain what I meant in my very first comment.

see you,

Antonio Napoli said...


thanks fr you last comment. Finally!
But you still do not get my point, and even Will does not get...

This evening I will give you some more examples.

see you,

Antonio Napoli said...

@ Foarp:

may I ask you something?
I saw several "deleted comments", were they people insulting us, or what?

Can you tell me?

Many thanks!

FOARP said...

No, the comments were deleted by the people who wrote them, probably because they contained mistakes.